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As I mentioned earlier, I think Major League Baseball, in deciding to add the extremely patchy Negro Leagues’ statistics to their own, is missing the point about the appeal of its statistics: that they are immense but finite and thus more comprehensible than most social sciences, which helps explain the progress made by baseball analysts over the last half century.
A reader writes:
Wouldn’t the logic of Major League Baseball’s decision to elevate the Negro Leagues to major league status mean that Jackie Robinson’s 1947 Rookie of the Year Award should be taken away? He would no longer be eligible as he would no longer be a rookie, having played in the “major leagues” prior to 1947.
This issue came up in 2001 when Ichiro Suzuki was unjustly awarded the AL Rookie of the Year Award in addition to being justly awarded the AL MVP Award. It was unjust because Suzuki was not really a rookie, having played in Japan for the previous nine seasons. The real 2001 AL Rookie of the Year was of course C.C. Sabathia of the Cleveland Indians, who made his MLB debut earlier that year at age 20, coming directly from Double-A and having completely skipped Triple-A.
Those who defended Suzuki winning the Rookie of the Year Award of course brought up Jackie Robinson and how he was given the inaugural Rookie of the Year Award despite having played in the Negro Leagues.
Other ex-Negro League ballplayers beside Robinson who won rookie of the year awards in the Major Leagues include:
Don Newcombe, 1949 National League
Sam Jethroe, 1950 NL
Willie Mays, 1951 NL
Joe Black, 1952 NL
Jim Gilliam, 1953 NL
Some of them might not have played enough games in the Negro Leagues to lose Rookie of the Year eligibility, such as Willie Mays who played 13 games in 1948 at age 17. But nobody is too sure.
Other Japanese major league veterans besides Ichiro who became RoYs in the US MLB include Shohei Ohtani, Kazuhiro Sasaki, and Hideo Nomo.
English
Arabic
Chinese (Simplified)
Dutch
French
German
Hebrew
Hindi
Italian
Japanese
Korean
Persian
Polish
Portuguese
Russian
Spanish
Swedish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Born on third base, as they say.
– Wallace “Suitcase” Jefferson, negro astronaut
although remember the situation was a little more complicated than what Suitcase Jefferson described; some who were light-skinned enough- like Gus Grissom, were able to pass as off as whites and officially join NASA.
The Old Negro Space Program-a documentary not by Ken Burns
A Pew survey asked respondents, from 17 different nations, what gave them meaning in life.
They were asked about family & children, romantic partners, friends & community, nature, religion, work, hobbies, traveling, learning, and finances.
They were asked whether each thing provided them with meaning in life.
If you look through the above thread, you can see what percentage of the respondents (in each individual nation) derived meaning from each activity.
If average the percentages for each individual country, here are the results.
Australia – 18.6%
New Zealand – 18%
Sweden – 17.6%
Italy – 16.4%
Spain – 15.8%
Netherlands – 15.1%
USA – 15%
UK – 14.9%
Canada – 14.5%
Greece – 13.9%
Belgium – 13.1%
France – 10.9%
Germany – 10.6%
Singapore – 10%
Japan – 7.9%
Taiwan – 7%
South Korea – 5.2%
There’s roughly a standard deviation gap between the Western nations and the 3 homogenous East Asian nations (Japan, Taiwan, South Korea). The Western average is 15%, while the East Asian average is 6.7%. That’s nearly a half standard deviation gap.
Singapore is slightly higher than the homogenous East Asian nations, but that could be related to the more diverse population mix (Malays, Indian, Euros, etc.). It’s a small country too (only slightly over 4 million citizens).
The East Asian nations rank near the bottom for nearly every single thing. So this is a real trend. Material well-being is a notable exception.
East Asians seem to suffer form anhedonia. They don’t seem to find much pleasure in life.
The Australia-New Zealand region seems to be a bit more fun-loving than the rest, which seems to suggest the stereotype of spirited Aussie-Kiwi may be correct. They seem somewhat consistently higher than the other nations.
The USA is pretty average by Westerns standards. We seem to attach relatively high value to religion, romance, family & children, and friends & community. We don’t seem to care much for nature or work.
Germany is a bit low, but maybe that’s within the margin of error? France is low too. When I look at the Belgium percentage, it suggests maybe French people have slight tendency towards anhedonia.
The Mediterranean nations (Spain, Italy, Greece) vary, but the average (15.4%) is similar to the Western average.
The Anglos average (16.2%) is slightly higher than the Continental Euro average (14.2%).
I have no idea if the above numbers approach statistical significance, except maybe for the East Asian nations. I think there’s something for real going on there.
The solution to the conundrum, is the usual one of calling anyone bringing up these matters a “racist” and a “white supremacist”!
[Smile.]
For those curious, here is who would have won the awards otherwise:
1947 Larry Jansen (NYG)
1949 NL Del Crandell (BOS)
1950 NL Bob Miller (PHI)
1951 NL Chet Nichols (BOS)
1952 NL Hoyt Wilhelm (NYG)
1953 NL Harvey Haddix (StL)
He had a rookie year for the ages (20-9, led the league in shutouts, etc.), while Junior Gilliam was a mediocrity. And the vote wasn't even close (11-4). There must have been affirmative action afoot already in the voting.
And what does google say Haddix was? "American baseball coach." Then again, it says the same of Gilliam. Heck, the pretend encyclopedia is more accurate about Haddix than google is.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @ScarletNumber
Can’t go wrong with the classics. 🙂
“As I mentioned earlier, I think Major League Baseball, in deciding to add the extremely patchy Negro Leagues’ statistics to their own, is missing the point about the appeal of its statistics”
The point is to promote the myth of the superior negro athlete, gaslight fans, and remind whites that racism was/is the most fundamental aspect of American history.
Stat lovers are missing the point.
We should try to be circumspect. The fact that Steve is reduced to baseball blogging is a sign of Overton Window shift and the plethora of right-wing viewpoints now available.
Listening to him slowly recite stock non-responsive stories to avoid saying anything of substance on podcasts is cringe. IMHO, he is making a big mistake and hurting his reputation.
Any new people checking him out are expecting to hear a knowledgeable intellectual who has a theory of the world and can talk fluently about it. Instead, they hear someone who seems amiable but very non-intellectual and very uninteresting. They go away disappointed. It's a real missed opportunity.
Y’all atre the whiniest most aggrieved people in history. No wonder women don’t like you. I cannot wait until whites get justice.
Whites are the default race of man, the standard by which others are measured.
Brown V Board just passed its 70th anniversary and all Steve wants to write about is the Negro leagues and another dozen posts about George Floyd.
Has the book tour killed Steve’ interesting in noticing anything new and thus, he has to keep going to the same old topics.
Steve, have you noticed the Trevor Bauer situation with MLB blackballing the guy for showing that “MeToo” is an utter farce? Do you think Bauer gets back to the major leagues?
I am especially curious about why MLB thinks Bauer is radioactive. None of the criticism about Bauer add up to justify denying a top 50 talent from playing. What is the hold up?
It is important to remind Bauer critics that MLB employs proven abusers of women. Allegations against Bauer have been literally disproven, as well as rejected by the legal system. It almost seems that because MLB overreacted when the allegations surfaced they are holding it against Bauer that the allegations were false.
ATV deaths rose by a third in 2020, the most recent! year for which data is available. No word about deaths by race, but they do warn about using them on paved roads.
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2024/05/31/ATV-deaths-climb/5041717180947/
It’s not just stats that will change. Often things less tangible – – an ethos, a feeling, – – will be erased or diluted. Some researcher will inevitably come-up with a Negro League hitting streak, and “Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you” loses its larger meaning. Gehrig’s speech loses something as soon as a putatively, unprovably, more heroic stricken Negro player turns up. Or a player more community-dedicated than Clemente, so let’s rename the Clemente Award with a dual name. Stats will be the camel’s nose. The full camel will be a 1619 Project for baseball. And by the way, stats unfortunately aren’t what they used to be. PEDs destroyed homer records. Pitchers get pulled in the 5th inning while they are pitching a no hitter.
I guess the statue toppling will be coming along at some point.
Integrating the Negro Leagues stats is not exactly an apples to apples comparison. I saw the other day it makes Josh Gibson the player with the highest career and single season batting average but I looked and he only played like 500 total games and the season with the highest batting average didn’t even have 30 games in it. No doubt he was a talented athlete, but Ted Williams played in over 4 times as many games as well as at bats.
I realize the entire point of virtually every societal institution these days is the glorification of black Americans, but we need some context here.
Race hustlers are famous for pushing dirty statistics.
(Always some dirt in statistics; nature of the thing, e.g. teams only bat for eight innings in some of their games. As in many things, it is a matter of degree.)Replies: @Arclight
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gibsojo99.shtmlIf you look closely you will see according to them he did not even lead his own league in 1943 (anyone else notice that was a war year?) when he had his .466 BA. So who did?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NN2/1943-standard-batting.shtmlA 37 year old named Tetelo Vargas who batted .471 over 30 games with 136 plate appearances. Ouch. Can't have a Hispanic (even if he was black) leading the Negro Leagues. Here is Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetelo_VargasThis page gives details of Baseball Reference coverage for Negro League statistics.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/coverage.shtml#all_negro_leaguesHere is the MLB page describing the addition of NLB statistics. Among other fun is this. What can't Covid do?!
https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-negro-league-stats-added-after-statistical-review-committee-announces-findingsHere is the official statement of what is required for season leader stats to qualify.Let's take another look at Tetelo Vargas and the 1943 season for his team.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vargate01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYC/1943.shtmlThere we see:
- 30 games with 136 plate appearances
- (team) Record: 19-14-1, Finished 2nd in Negro National League IINow for some math. 136/44 = 3.09 My goodness, that 3.1 requirement is awfully convenient. It gets even better when we look at the actual rule.
https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/mlb/9-22-minimum-standards-individual-championships/Looking deeper it seems the 3.1 number dates from 1957 so really is an extremely lucky coincidence Vargas was so close? From the Baseball Reference FAQ. This explains why they differ from MLB on this.
https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/baseball-reference-faqs/There is a huge disconnect between the official statistics and what is claimed. For example, at the link above Josh Gibson has 166 home runs. Yet we see this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_GibsonThen there is this.To update Beria's quote: "Tell me what you want to 'prove' and I will find you a number."Although it is a small sample (2 homers in 56 PA against MLB pitchers) I think the difference in HR rates between MLB and NLB pitchers (2/56 vs. 224/2,375 or 1/28 vs. 1 in 10.6) is an additional point towards my comments about difference in pitching between the leagues.For another point along those lines, here are 1943 team batting statistics.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1943-standard-batting.shtmlThe Homestead Grays led with .330 (BTW, notice how leagues are not included in this table! You can roughly infer NLB by looking at missing statistics like strikeouts) followed by two NLB teams and then the St. Louis Cardinals at .279. Does anyone want to claim the pitching between the leagues was at all comparable?BTW, I was just reading a review of the book 1984 by Isaac Asimov. He considered the rewriting of history idea unnecessary since people are so present oriented.
https://www.newworker.org/ncptrory/1984.htmP.S. This is really long, but also very on topic. Steve, if you want to add a MORE feel free.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
“…and if you were a negro…and an astronaut…you were outta work…you see it was a different time back then.”
– Wallace “Suitcase” Jefferson, negro astronaut
although remember the situation was a little more complicated than what Suitcase Jefferson described; some who were light-skinned enough- like Gus Grissom, were able to pass as off as whites and officially join NASA.
The Old Negro Space Program-a documentary not by Ken Burns
Speaking of the “Negro Leagues”…
27 Shot in Akron, 1 Killed
https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/06/02/27-people-shot-akron-1-man-killed-multiple-victims-hospitalized/
Like the story of the 17-year black girl from Chicago getting a Ph.D.?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/19/us/dorothy-tillman-chicago-arizona-state/index.html
The only woman in the Hall of Fame is a Negro League team owner who got in through the “executive” category. This is more impressive than anything on the field. Running the Yankees or the Cardinals would have been a cakewalk next to keeping a Negro League franchise solvent for years.
The executive category should be wider. Nancy Faust belongs in the Hall, along with that Kansas City groundskeeper. Did Harry Caray ever work directly for a club? He did get the HOF’s Ford Frick Award. Nancy riffed an entire career off one of his jokes.
Missing the point again…..
The point is Plaques for blacks. More likely than take the rookie of the year award from these black athletes is to retro who the rookie of the year is so every year it was a black athlete, same with MVP award for every season.
Now they can do it for chess.
I realize the entire point of virtually every societal institution these days is the glorification of black Americans, but we need some context here.Replies: @bomag, @Dr. DoomNGloom, @res
Thanks.
Race hustlers are famous for pushing dirty statistics.
(Always some dirt in statistics; nature of the thing, e.g. teams only bat for eight innings in some of their games. As in many things, it is a matter of degree.)
It's reached absurd heights and I have heard even good white lefties derisively talk about 'representation' in TV shows and commercials so it's starting to be pretty hard to ignore. I think that a generation from now this over saturation combined with demographic changes means blacks are going to have to get used to a lot less reverential - if not outright dismissive - treatment.Replies: @Mark G., @Mr. Anon
Steve, you’re trying to apply logical consistency to this. There isn’t. It’s about worshiping blacks and rewriting history so that all of the great White men of American history weren’t actually that great but promoted because of the great White Supremacist conspiracy concocted to keep the black man down. So Jackie keeps his ROTY and Josh Gibson is now the greatest hitter and not that evil White racist Ty Cobb. In 20 years, the Negro League will be the only baseball league talked about. Blacks invented baseball, blacks popularized baseball, and if it weren’t for a cabal of White men devising elaborate schemes to impress blacks then there wouldn’t be any great White players.
There appears to be no end to the elevation of the American negro to supplant Whites. Rob Manfred, MLB Commissioner, made the decision to move the All Star game several years ago, out of Georgia b/c of the voting rights bill they passed requiring an i.d., saying that it will discriminate against blacks. He is a White catholic Harvard law grad. Another GD’ed race traitor.
You'd think the
Washington GeneralsRepublicans would run with the "why do you continue to insist that blacks are too stupid to government ID's? They have no problem getting government jobs" but then they wouldn't be Republicans.1790-- 35.9%
1880-- 47.0%
1970-- 25.9%
2020-- 31.0%
The recent inching up is likely due to escape from both Africa and California. And, of course, from places like Detroit.Interesting orthography. In this case, the lower-case is justified. Especially after the demise of Roe:
LOL. Another post on this?
“Thou shalt not mess with my sports statistics.”
Well, they are messing Steve. (For the obvious reason we all understand–blacks are the minoritarian narrative, the justification for beating whitey and taking away his nations.) But I’m sure there are league tags and you can easily filter and pull what you want into Excel for analysis.
Seeing this I do heartily applaud you for venturing out and making great use of your desire to peruse and analyze stats. It’s easy to you could have fallen into a completely wasted life obsessing over this trivial ephemera. But instead, you’ve had a great and useful career noticing and analyzing important realities for the benefit of America, the West, humanity.
OT:
Wow this has to set the record for the ratio 27:1.
https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/06/02/27-people-shot-akron-1-man-killed-multiple-victims-hospitalized/
Baseball, like almost every-other sport, is well on its way with the renaming of iconic buildings of yore to revenue generating corporatist names, so they’ve got a good head start in that vector.
I guess the statue toppling will be coming along at some point.
Steve, not sure if you had noticed, but Netflix has released a David E. Kelley miniseries version of Tom Wolfe’s A Man in Full. They rewrote it substantially to fit 2024 sensibilities.
The black-on-white rape is gone. Instead we get a white-on-black police brutality story.
https://time.com/6973213/a-man-in-full-review-netflix/
How long (is a Chinaman) until the term “trading” card is banned due to an ‘association’ with the slave trade?
Mel Gibson: “I’ll trade you my pack of negroes for one Randy Johnson bird strike.”
Topps copy copying The Old Negro Space Program:
Black Sox scandals, and various other rules about sports betting, consorting with gamblers, making bets on your team, etc.?
Would be interesting to know this.
A small league with fans who are often avid gamblers and players who weren't making much money is surely an ideal place for game fixing, run shaving, bribe taking, ump fixing, etc. Plenty of Black! customers and bookies who would have loved to fix games or statistics. Black! gangsters too.
Segregated Black! neighborhoods always had bars and barbershops which took bets (like White ones). Who if anyone actually enforced the "no betting" rules for the Negro Leagues?
This is just other one of the apples vs. oranges problems.Replies: @res
An admirable idea.
The point is Plaques for blacks. More likely than take the rookie of the year award from these black athletes is to retro who the rookie of the year is so every year it was a black athlete, same with MVP award for every season.Replies: @Anonymous
You are missing the point. The point is White Genocide.
Race hustlers are famous for pushing dirty statistics.
(Always some dirt in statistics; nature of the thing, e.g. teams only bat for eight innings in some of their games. As in many things, it is a matter of degree.)Replies: @Arclight
At some point, if you have any functioning brain cells at all, you recognize that the endless efforts to praise a given group for their amazing contributions to American life is just a desperate recognition that they really have very little positive contributions to speak of at all.
It’s reached absurd heights and I have heard even good white lefties derisively talk about ‘representation’ in TV shows and commercials so it’s starting to be pretty hard to ignore. I think that a generation from now this over saturation combined with demographic changes means blacks are going to have to get used to a lot less reverential – if not outright dismissive – treatment.
For the last 60 years we have been trying to assimiliate Blacks into the middle class. I can remember in my sixties Indianapolis childhood when we started this project by ending segregation. Whites were unpleasantly surprised when this was followed by a huge Black crimewave.
Whites then moved to the suburbs, went into a state of denial, and pretended it never happened. They have continued to present the success of this project as plausible by claiming Blacks have had past successes, so it can happen again.
The majority of Americans now were born after 1980 so do not remember all the talk of "light at the end of the tunnel" during the Vietnam War. This was an effort to justify pouring more resources into a hopeless cause. We are not going to take 85 IQ ghetto Blacks and turn them into middle class people. That is another hopeless cause.Replies: @Anonymous, @John Johnson, @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @Hypnotoad666
I realize the entire point of virtually every societal institution these days is the glorification of black Americans, but we need some context here.Replies: @bomag, @Dr. DoomNGloom, @res
Exactly. There are standards for things like the batting, slugging, or OBP title requiring 502 plate appearances.
A timey-wimey episode of Dr Who has far more self-awareness than MLB these days.
In a rational world, since Major League baseball and Negro League baseball were completely different entities, Major League baseball would continue have its own statistics and Negro League baseball would continue to have its own statistics.
Also, in my opinion, those who feel that there is a need to incorporate the Negro League statistical apples into the Major League statistical oranges, do a disservice to Negro League baseball by implying that Negro League baseball cannot stand on its own and, thus, somehow needs to look to Major League baseball to legitimize itself.
Nevertheless, Major League baseball’s decision to incorporate Negro League baseball’s statistics into its own is completely rational. Essentially, Major League baseball’s decision to “take the knee” in front of the various offshoots of the BLM crowd is just a typical politically correct, and rational, corporate action to avoid trouble.
I realize the entire point of virtually every societal institution these days is the glorification of black Americans, but we need some context here.Replies: @bomag, @Dr. DoomNGloom, @res
Agreed about the need for context and your basic points. The Negro League statistics are selective (lack of box scores) and vary over time. Here are the current Baseball Reference statistics for Josh Gibson.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gibsojo99.shtml
If you look closely you will see according to them he did not even lead his own league in 1943 (anyone else notice that was a war year?) when he had his .466 BA. So who did?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NN2/1943-standard-batting.shtml
A 37 year old named Tetelo Vargas who batted .471 over 30 games with 136 plate appearances. Ouch. Can’t have a Hispanic (even if he was black) leading the Negro Leagues. Here is Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetelo_Vargas
This page gives details of Baseball Reference coverage for Negro League statistics.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/coverage.shtml#all_negro_leagues
Here is the MLB page describing the addition of NLB statistics. Among other fun is this. What can’t Covid do?!
https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-negro-league-stats-added-after-statistical-review-committee-announces-findings
Here is the official statement of what is required for season leader stats to qualify.
Let’s take another look at Tetelo Vargas and the 1943 season for his team.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vargate01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYC/1943.shtml
There we see:
– 30 games with 136 plate appearances
– (team) Record: 19-14-1, Finished 2nd in Negro National League II
Now for some math. 136/44 = 3.09 My goodness, that 3.1 requirement is awfully convenient. It gets even better when we look at the actual rule.
https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/mlb/9-22-minimum-standards-individual-championships/
Looking deeper it seems the 3.1 number dates from 1957 so really is an extremely lucky coincidence Vargas was so close? From the Baseball Reference FAQ. This explains why they differ from MLB on this.
https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/baseball-reference-faqs/
There is a huge disconnect between the official statistics and what is claimed. For example, at the link above Josh Gibson has 166 home runs. Yet we see this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Gibson
Then there is this.
To update Beria’s quote: “Tell me what you want to ‘prove’ and I will find you a number.”
Although it is a small sample (2 homers in 56 PA against MLB pitchers) I think the difference in HR rates between MLB and NLB pitchers (2/56 vs. 224/2,375 or 1/28 vs. 1 in 10.6) is an additional point towards my comments about difference in pitching between the leagues.
For another point along those lines, here are 1943 team batting statistics.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1943-standard-batting.shtml
The Homestead Grays led with .330 (BTW, notice how leagues are not included in this table! You can roughly infer NLB by looking at missing statistics like strikeouts) followed by two NLB teams and then the St. Louis Cardinals at .279. Does anyone want to claim the pitching between the leagues was at all comparable?
BTW, I was just reading a review of the book 1984 by Isaac Asimov. He considered the rewriting of history idea unnecessary since people are so present oriented.
https://www.newworker.org/ncptrory/1984.htm
P.S. This is really long, but also very on topic. Steve, if you want to add a MORE feel free.
Btw, was there a Negro Leagues pitcher named Lamont Lomax, and did he pitch 46 consecutive scoreless innings in 1932 for the Homestead Grays?Replies: @res
They then moved the All Star game to Denver. Which is in Colorado, which is a state requiring an i.d. to vote.
You’d think the
Washington GeneralsRepublicans would run with the “why do you continue to insist that blacks are too stupid to government ID’s? They have no problem getting government jobs” but then they wouldn’t be Republicans.Willie Mays is getting his 10 negro league hits added to his total. No record of home runs because no box scores.
there is no conundrum.
as Tolkien explained to fans whenever they pointed out a major problem with the stories. “Because shut up, that’s why.”
some guy maybe batting .450 for 20 games one time, maybe batting .460, who could say, is official canon now. so just shut up about it.
there’s no need to point out these players sure didn’t bat .460 when they came to MLB to play.
Rob ‘Tolkien’ Manfred explains Negro League batting averages
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2024/05/31/ATV-deaths-climb/5041717180947/Replies: @NotAnonymousHere
When I read about ATVs Gone Wild or see them on TV it’s always a large group of ATVs in an urban area where the typical Negro does not own an ATV. Statistically I’m confident in my assessment that these are cases of ad hoc gangs of Negroes who have stolen a number of ATVs from white people. I go into this in my forthcoming book, None Dare Call It Theft.
Well I won’t say that there are better or lesser frames of reference, but I will say that there are at least, um… different frames of reference.
For instance, what is with all this multi-billion dollar investment in paying attention to people playing what are in fact children’s games? Speaking as a guy who used to get the crap kicked out of him as a kid for walking down the street carrying Mozart sheet music. And who can’t get a congressman to look into funding for the high-school Shakespeare Olympics.
What’s the obsession with sports anyway? Why do we stand at attenti0n and play the National Anthem before the start of a sportsball game, but not at the beginning of the ballet? It’s all military jingoistic crap, nobody goes to war for the Nutcracker, but they should.
I did a production once of Jarry’s “Ubu Roi” where, at the start of the performance, I asked the audience to rise and stand at attention for the Star-Spangled Banner. Then they sat. Then they were asked again to rise and stand for “America the Beautiful.” Then they sat. Then they were asked to rise and stand again for “God Bless America.” Then “O Canada.” Then “God Save the Queen.” Then the Sex Pistols version of “God Save the Queen.” Then just some random reggae. By now, people were leaving the theatre.
Not until somebody had stormed out in anger that I gave the cast the nod to begin.
In case you don’t know, the first line of Ubu Roi is “Shiiiiiiiiit!!!!” I had the guy say it while smashing a ringing alarm clock with a baseball bat.
“ Steve is reduced to baseball blogging…”
Steve’s been wallowing in the abject state of sportsblogger since 1997.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/track-and-battlefield-by-steve-sailer/
See: Akron
Only race treason can explain the presence of blacks in Georgia at all. Georgia’s black population peaked in 1880, troughed in 1970, and is lower today than it was in 1790:
1790– 35.9%
1880– 47.0%
1970– 25.9%
2020– 31.0%
The recent inching up is likely due to escape from both Africa and California. And, of course, from places like Detroit.
Interesting orthography. In this case, the lower-case is justified. Especially after the demise of Roe:
1947 Larry Jansen (NYG)
1949 NL Del Crandell (BOS)
1950 NL Bob Miller (PHI)
1951 NL Chet Nichols (BOS)
1952 NL Hoyt Wilhelm (NYG)
1953 NL Harvey Haddix (StL)Replies: @kaganovitch, @Nicholas Stix
Haddix should have won over Gilliam in 1953 easily. In addition to his outstanding pitching season he added almost a full WAR at the plate.
BTW, in case anyone thinks the statistical rewriting is over… See this.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/hof_standard.shtml
P.S. Regarding my “relative acclaim/performance ratio” comment in an earlier thread, that link has Jackie Robinson measured as 40 for batting when 50 is meant to be an average hall of famer. Then we scroll down near the bottom and see him as seventh in the list of “All-Time Greats.”
An even better example is Oscar Charleston who is fifth in that list (37 batting).
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/charlos99.shtml
And I assume that ranking takes the Negro League statistics at face value.
The traditional compromise solution: multiply the Negro League statistics by 0.6.
The point is to promote the myth of the superior negro athlete, gaslight fans, and remind whites that racism was/is the most fundamental aspect of American history.
Stat lovers are missing the point.Replies: @Danindc, @james wilson, @MGB
Steve is making an analytical argument not an emotional one
It's reached absurd heights and I have heard even good white lefties derisively talk about 'representation' in TV shows and commercials so it's starting to be pretty hard to ignore. I think that a generation from now this over saturation combined with demographic changes means blacks are going to have to get used to a lot less reverential - if not outright dismissive - treatment.Replies: @Mark G., @Mr. Anon
“endless efforts to praise a certain group”
For the last 60 years we have been trying to assimiliate Blacks into the middle class. I can remember in my sixties Indianapolis childhood when we started this project by ending segregation. Whites were unpleasantly surprised when this was followed by a huge Black crimewave.
Whites then moved to the suburbs, went into a state of denial, and pretended it never happened. They have continued to present the success of this project as plausible by claiming Blacks have had past successes, so it can happen again.
The majority of Americans now were born after 1980 so do not remember all the talk of “light at the end of the tunnel” during the Vietnam War. This was an effort to justify pouring more resources into a hopeless cause. We are not going to take 85 IQ ghetto Blacks and turn them into middle class people. That is another hopeless cause.
==
Most people are wage-earners. Don't know why you object to them.
==
No clue what you'd call salaried employees and small businessmen who are black (who were not absent prior to 1964, btw).
==
There are four local government authorities where I live, with a total population of 250,000. One is 27% black, one 7.5% black, one 5.8% black, and one 3% black. The whole area is about 14% black. About 35% of the black population lives out and about in census tracts where blacks are not particularly common (4.5% or thereabouts on average). The state police have been skimping on county-level data in recent years. Their 2017 report recorded one homicide in three of the four jurisdictions noted above, in a population of 150,000. How do you characterize this 35% of the black population?Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
Has he ever said what programs would work? If not, formulating those programs is where he could do the most good as a pro-social public intellectual.Replies: @Mike Tre, @Mark G., @John Johnson
Man, has the Sailer mass shooting theory ever had a stronger showing?
See: Akron
The point is to promote the myth of the superior negro athlete, gaslight fans, and remind whites that racism was/is the most fundamental aspect of American history.
Stat lovers are missing the point.Replies: @Danindc, @james wilson, @MGB
The point most missed and never broached is that under segregation baseball was the number one Aferican spectator and player sport. Now, of course, it’s last.
Here is some 2019 data for favorite sport by ethnicity.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1074256/sports-leagues-ethnicity/
MLB not literally last for blacks (NHL and MLS both trail, I am surprised they manage to hit 2% each), but close enough.
Any idea why black basketball leagues from the same era seem to receive so much less attention (both then and now?) than the Negro Leagues?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fives
For the last 60 years we have been trying to assimiliate Blacks into the middle class. I can remember in my sixties Indianapolis childhood when we started this project by ending segregation. Whites were unpleasantly surprised when this was followed by a huge Black crimewave.
Whites then moved to the suburbs, went into a state of denial, and pretended it never happened. They have continued to present the success of this project as plausible by claiming Blacks have had past successes, so it can happen again.
The majority of Americans now were born after 1980 so do not remember all the talk of "light at the end of the tunnel" during the Vietnam War. This was an effort to justify pouring more resources into a hopeless cause. We are not going to take 85 IQ ghetto Blacks and turn them into middle class people. That is another hopeless cause.Replies: @Anonymous, @John Johnson, @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @Hypnotoad666
What was that phrase meant to refer to?
(Australian accent): Naaah…that’s not a conundrum. This is a conundrum.
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-05-31/solar-project-to-destroy-thousands-of-joshua-trees?utm_medium=email
Here’s the thing. Actually 2 things to be precise.
1. Back in ’01, when Ichiro won ROY, MLB was still operating by the traditional standard–perhaps a player had played in pro baseball leagues elsewhere, but, they had ONLY played in MLB for a single season, and hence their rookie season–in MLB.
So on that level, it does make sense that Ichiro won ROY. He was a rookie….in MLB. And for most of its history, MLB did not recognize other pro leagues, period. MLB for a few decades did not recognize the Federal League of 1914-15, refused to acknowledge the stats of that pro league, because it was not MLB, pure and simple. There are other various factors, but that was certainly a main one. So for both Robinson and Ichiro, they were rookies…in MLB. And thus MLB did the correct thing by officially acknowledging them for their rookie season in MLB (as that was the only league in the US, at least, that counted. Other leagues outside the US, were automatically excluded because again, MLB is based in the US. Yes, yes, yes, MON and TOR (and now just TOR) are based outside the US, but for most of its history, MLB = the US, and thus the only league that counts.
The second thing:
2. Whenever lists are complied of the greatest ever to have played the game (in MLB)
one should of course take into account that the greatest players to have ever played in MLB have stood the test of time, they’re timeless, classic, and eternal. Their stats are almost (to put it bluntly) of sacred status. Those few great 0.000000000001% players who have earned the right to be included in the conversation of greatest EVER to have played the game, it goes without saying that they are the few players whose stats hold up over the various eras, and that they could compete in MLB in any time period, any era, on the field.
Example: A not so small reason that Babe Ruth is (or was) considered for close to a century at the summit of the mountain, as THE greatest ever all time player in MLB is due to a recognition that he could compete in any era as a player–his style of play would perfectly fit in with today’s MLB. Also there is the matter of his stats. Ruth’s stats for the most part definitely hold up in MLB of today. A .350 BA, 150-160 RBI’s, and 45-54 HR’s? Those kinds of average offensive stats are STILL considered to be very dominant in today’s MLB.
Which is why, aside from Wokeism/CRT considerations, there’s no real justification for equating a third rate, inferior league like the Negro Leagues to MLB. MLB, for most of it’s history is/was the gold standard of pro baseball…for the entire world. Facts. It would be akin to saying that a Yugo is the equivalent of a Rolls Royce. Yes, both cars are/were produced in Europe, and they do have 4 tires, but there the similarities come to and end.
Finally, in the case of Babe Ruth, a large part of why his legacy continues to dominate (aside from his personal stats) is because he changed the entire way that MLB is played. Jackie Robinson did the same thing as well, but his was off the field, namely, he is one of MLB’s greatest SYMBOLS, period, for having accomplished impossible odds vs the system that was stacked vs people that looked like him (at the time). To suggest otherwise (that his WAR was off the charts, that he was considered a greatest player ever over a five yr period, etc etc) is frankly, grasping at straws and borders on asininity.
MLB did NOT retire Robinson’s number due to his WAR. They didn’t retire his number because of stealing home in ’56 WS, or his MVP in ’49. They retired it because he is a great SYMBOL. Nothing less, and sure as hell nothing more.
But Babe Ruth still sits at the apex of the entire mountaintop. Ruth IS MLB, so to speak. When an entire sport changes the way the game is played and continues to play his style of game a full century after he ushered in the style that no one had seen prior, then that individual must be honored as perhaps the greatest EVER to have played in MLB. (e.g. Paramount emphasis on the HR as “THE” premier offensive stat”; one of “the” three true outcomes in Sabermetrics; entire ballparks shortening their fences and eventually reducing their power alleys so as to make it easier for their teams to hit more HR’s). When Ruth started hitting HR’s big time, he outhomered entire TEAM rosters. Let that sink in. Some stat decades ago was that during the ’20’s that Ruth alone hit one HR for every 8 hit in either MLB or the AL. That is phenomenal. These factors are due to a single individual in the 20th century…George Herman “Babe” Ruth, period.
There is Babe Ruth…and then there is everyone else (for a century and counting). THAT is the magnitude of Babe Ruth. No such magnitude exists within the Negro Leagues. If it were all that, their most dominant P, Satchel Paige wouldn’t have skipped out for half the ’30’s (perhaps this was due to the fact that he could earn more money playing in other leagues). People also seem to overlook the fact that most blacks did not want to play in the Negro Leagues. They wanted very much to play in MLB, but couldn’t through no fault of their own. Once Robinson broke the color line in ’47, then the Negro Leagues folded a few yrs later–there was no reason for it to continue since now blacks could play in MLB, the gold standard of all for professional baseball worldwide (and to a large extent, MLB remains the gold standard).
Japan (and other nations) are starting to send their best players to play in MLB, whreas few if any dominant MLBers quit MLB to play in Japan (or anywhere else for that matter). That fact alone speaks volumes regarding which league is the best worldwide for pro baseball.
But again to leave it at this…
R is for Ruth,
To tell you the truth,
There’s just no more to be said,
Just R is for Ruth.
MLB+R would be a more apt designation for the league’s name to describe the impact that he had on the league as a whole and continues to have in 2024.
OT – The Great Awakening. In honor of WASP American heritage month, the White House posted a picture on Twitter (X) of about 160 or so White House staffers who are WASPs.
Except they weren’t WASPs and it wasn’t for WASP American heritage month. They were members of some other tribe. And 160 seems like a lot more than 2% of the White House staff.
Please continue not noticing.
It's reached absurd heights and I have heard even good white lefties derisively talk about 'representation' in TV shows and commercials so it's starting to be pretty hard to ignore. I think that a generation from now this over saturation combined with demographic changes means blacks are going to have to get used to a lot less reverential - if not outright dismissive - treatment.Replies: @Mark G., @Mr. Anon
Do they really? Could you expand on that – I’m curious what they say about it. And have they noticed and remarked upon the vast number of interracial couples in TV ads? If even liberals are starting to notice this – that’s interesting.
Sailer’s interests and writings were about baseball statistics long before they expanded into other subjects. You won’t find that out on his egregious Wikipedia page, but he’s mentioned this any number of times when asked to describe his career on his current book tour.
If you haven’t played in a league you are a rookie there. No other definition works. E.g., Arvidas Sabonis was an NBA rookie at the age of 31. It’s not like he was going to win the Chamberlain Trophy (NBA Rookie of the Year) for his play in Europe. And, btw, playing in the NCAA is clearly a pro sport.
Has anyone checked to see if the Negro League had the same ethics rules, and enforced them, as the Major Leagues during the relevant period?
Black Sox scandals, and various other rules about sports betting, consorting with gamblers, making bets on your team, etc.?
Would be interesting to know this.
A small league with fans who are often avid gamblers and players who weren’t making much money is surely an ideal place for game fixing, run shaving, bribe taking, ump fixing, etc. Plenty of Black! customers and bookies who would have loved to fix games or statistics. Black! gangsters too.
Segregated Black! neighborhoods always had bars and barbershops which took bets (like White ones). Who if anyone actually enforced the “no betting” rules for the Negro Leagues?
This is just other one of the apples vs. oranges problems.
https://www.history.com/topics/sports/negro-league-baseballThis quote seems to indicate the negative thoughts were undeserved, but I wonder.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30540089/mlb-add-negro-leagues-official-records-never-change-did-black-playershttps://makingsofafather.com/numbers/https://sabr.org/journal/article/negro-league-baseball-black-community-and-the-socio-economic-impact-of-integration/Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
Underscoring all this is the implication that somehow no one knows how good Gibson, Paige et al were. It’s been well known since Major Leaguers played against black players on the wintertime barnstorming circuit. Unfortunately this led to the implication that Negro Leagues players were all HOFers.
Some were/are HOFers, of course, and many more were of major league caliber, but not all.
All this is part of our national cult of Negro worship.
Exactly. Especially since they played their careers in piss poor leagues vs mostly 3rd rate calibre players.
"It’s been well known since Major Leaguers played against black players on the wintertime barnstorming circuit. Unfortunately this led to the implication that Negro Leagues players were all HOFers."
Preach it, brother! And for CRT/Wokeism, that's the main point of the whole entire ballgame. To make everyone think exactly that thought, that they were ALLLLL great HOFers in the making, until whitey spoiled it for 'em!
https://www.mlb.com/news/negro-leagues-major-leagues-equivalenciesHere is the actual Baseball Reference all-time center field WAR leaderboard for comparison.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_CF.shtmlThose numbers are based on this database.
https://horsehidedragnet.wordpress.com/negro-leagues/That page also links to a long article.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33194902/top-100-mlb-players-all-oscar-charleston-best-baseball-player-all-why-important-try-find-out
Top 100 MLB players of all time: What if Oscar Charleston is the best baseball player of all time -- and why it's so important to try to find out
Looking up Oscar Charleston in that database I see lifetime (a sample, to judge inclusiveness) 12020 plate appearances and 358 home runs. Compare that to Baseball Reference.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/charlos99.shtml3885 plate appearances and 143 home runs.Presumably the latter stats are against better competition, but let's look at HR production rate.12020 / 358 = 1 HR per 33.6 PA
3885 / 143 = 1 HR per 27.2 PASo he had a higher HR rate against better competition? Does that make sense?In the current 1.4 version of that database I see a WAR of 107.7 and 1924 OPS of 1.243 (1925 of 1.256) compared to WAR of 98.4 and 1924 OPS of 1.180 in the ESPN article. Just how high can they goose the Negro League numbers?I am only beginning to appreciate how much this change is less significant in itself than as a Pandora's Box being opened. The combination of sketchy statistics and woke desires will be interesting (in the sense of the "ancient Chinese curse") to watch unfold.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
Seems strange to be able to say “Negro” Leagues without being punished. I thought White people were prohibited from saying the word “negro.” So, maybe this is a step forward.
I am especially curious about why MLB thinks Bauer is radioactive. None of the criticism about Bauer add up to justify denying a top 50 talent from playing. What is the hold up?
It is important to remind Bauer critics that MLB employs proven abusers of women. Allegations against Bauer have been literally disproven, as well as rejected by the legal system. It almost seems that because MLB overreacted when the allegations surfaced they are holding it against Bauer that the allegations were false.Replies: @Manfred Arcane
Bauer is/was a Trump supporter, had a reputation for being “toxic” towards women on Twitter (a reputation with no valid basis, of course), and was extremely outspoken about pitchers using foreign substances (such as spider tack) to put extra spin on the ball and MLB’s unspoken policy of winking at it. His whistleblowing about the spider tack scandal made the commissioner’s office eager to see him tripped up, and his politically incorrect views (not to mention his white maleness) made him someone whom it was easy to crush with impunity as soon as there was a pretext for doing so.
OT: But that police officer that was stabbed in the Mannheim attack, the one Steve referenced, has died from his wounds.
If this doesn’t cause the sea-change what will?
Will the German authorities now charge the hapless right winger with the death of this officer.
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/mannheim-verletzter-polizist-nach-messerangriff-gestorben-19760331.html
Meanwhile, the Africanization of NYC continues, as their feral negro population just closed down the entire Walgreen’s franchise, and more and more retailers evacuate the city to protect themselves from the onslaught of feral negroes and their celebrated theivery, creating an ever-increasing number of empty store fronts in the shopping districts of the battered wretched metropolis.
The playing fields of Eton may have more significance than you think.
Thoughts?
For the last 60 years we have been trying to assimiliate Blacks into the middle class. I can remember in my sixties Indianapolis childhood when we started this project by ending segregation. Whites were unpleasantly surprised when this was followed by a huge Black crimewave.
Whites then moved to the suburbs, went into a state of denial, and pretended it never happened. They have continued to present the success of this project as plausible by claiming Blacks have had past successes, so it can happen again.
The majority of Americans now were born after 1980 so do not remember all the talk of "light at the end of the tunnel" during the Vietnam War. This was an effort to justify pouring more resources into a hopeless cause. We are not going to take 85 IQ ghetto Blacks and turn them into middle class people. That is another hopeless cause.Replies: @Anonymous, @John Johnson, @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @Hypnotoad666
I’ve read plenty about that period. Of course I am probably a 1 in a million case.
What shocks me is how Nixon actually expanded Affirmative Action beyond what the Democrats were asking. He privately accepted race but still supported the plan to create a Black middle class by discriminating against White men in government jobs.
He looked at all of the evidence and concluded yea let’s lie and spend billions trying to fix nature while discriminating against White men.
A Con Inc psycho if there ever was one.
The current unspoken Con Inc/liberal plan is to dilute them with other minorities. My wife knows an immigrant who was forced to open a business in a city like Detroit. It was the only way they would give her a green card. It’s marketed under some economic investment plan. They open a mini-mart and then raise their kids an hour away.
Yea this is all working just fine. Trying to deny nature is really working out for everyone. I actually became much more of an anti-leftist after seeing how much pressure is put on non-White kids. Liberalism is definitely not harmless to non-Whites. They push standardized tests on 7 year olds and put the weight of the world on them.
Aren’t you wondering what real black people will make of your stepin fechit? I mean it’s not like they are going to appreciate your mockery, you’re not Titana McGrath.
The point is to promote the myth of the superior negro athlete, gaslight fans, and remind whites that racism was/is the most fundamental aspect of American history.
Stat lovers are missing the point.Replies: @Danindc, @james wilson, @MGB
Real ESPN.com headline re Tom Brady’s bi-racial niece, UCLA softball player.
There have been more daughters/sisters/cousins/nieces of pro-athletes to play D1 softball than people realize. Former Bear 1st round bust Justin Fields' sister played at Georgia the last 4 seasons.
A 6'2" softmore at Tennessee named Karlyn Pickens (no relation to Slim that I know of) I believe broke the record for fastest pitch ever in D1 women's softball with a 76 mph effort this year:
https://extrainningsoftball.com/wp-content/uploads/Karly-Pickens-holding-ball-1536x1024.jpg
Despite the stereotype, I have noticed that lesbian players are quite a bit less represented in D1 softball than people think. Most of the older female coaches appear to be, like Michigan's longtime head coach who often resembles Robert Redford:
https://www.mlive.com/resizer/hT04V4c4BCnjrR6Gx5c1_MUImkc=/1280x0/smart/advancelocal-adapter-image-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/image.mlive.com/home/mlive-media/width2048/img/wolverines_impact/photo/hutchinsjpg-cca89c89ebbe3ccb.jpgReplies: @MGB
Objective data from multiple dating websites proves white males and females are both the most attractive. The dominance of white media worldwide is further evidence, nor can we forget that famous old study where little non-white girls prefer white dolls.
Whites are the default race of man, the standard by which others are measured.
I heard that the NBA is going to add the Harlem Globetrotters / Washington Generals statistics to its record books. Meadowlark Lemon takes over the career record for assists-per-game from Magic Johnson, and Curly Neal leads Steve Kerr in 3-pointer percentage…
A complete boycott of pro and full-scholarships-level college sports is ideal, but I don’t begrudge boomer nerds some moderate fandom fun.
Is that heading a hat tip to the late Jan Morris?
I don’t see why having played in the Negro Leagues should have deprived one of Rookie of the Year eligibility.
Was this the case with other minor leagues?
For the last 60 years we have been trying to assimiliate Blacks into the middle class. I can remember in my sixties Indianapolis childhood when we started this project by ending segregation. Whites were unpleasantly surprised when this was followed by a huge Black crimewave.
Whites then moved to the suburbs, went into a state of denial, and pretended it never happened. They have continued to present the success of this project as plausible by claiming Blacks have had past successes, so it can happen again.
The majority of Americans now were born after 1980 so do not remember all the talk of "light at the end of the tunnel" during the Vietnam War. This was an effort to justify pouring more resources into a hopeless cause. We are not going to take 85 IQ ghetto Blacks and turn them into middle class people. That is another hopeless cause.Replies: @Anonymous, @John Johnson, @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @Hypnotoad666
And open up the borders so foreigners grab the only jobs many blacks CAN do. Low-I.Q. blacks were duped into a lot of bullshit that hurt them, and enabled in all kinds of destructive ways. They really are victims, I guess.
Black Sox scandals, and various other rules about sports betting, consorting with gamblers, making bets on your team, etc.?
Would be interesting to know this.
A small league with fans who are often avid gamblers and players who weren't making much money is surely an ideal place for game fixing, run shaving, bribe taking, ump fixing, etc. Plenty of Black! customers and bookies who would have loved to fix games or statistics. Black! gangsters too.
Segregated Black! neighborhoods always had bars and barbershops which took bets (like White ones). Who if anyone actually enforced the "no betting" rules for the Negro Leagues?
This is just other one of the apples vs. oranges problems.Replies: @res
I see some hints of issues there. Anyone know more?
https://www.history.com/topics/sports/negro-league-baseball
This quote seems to indicate the negative thoughts were undeserved, but I wonder.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30540089/mlb-add-negro-leagues-official-records-never-change-did-black-players
https://makingsofafather.com/numbers/
https://sabr.org/journal/article/negro-league-baseball-black-community-and-the-socio-economic-impact-of-integration/
https://www.history.com/topics/sports/negro-league-baseballThis quote seems to indicate the negative thoughts were undeserved, but I wonder.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30540089/mlb-add-negro-leagues-official-records-never-change-did-black-playershttps://makingsofafather.com/numbers/https://sabr.org/journal/article/negro-league-baseball-black-community-and-the-socio-economic-impact-of-integration/Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
“The Negro Leagues enjoyed a resurgence of success thanks to the backing of owners who became rich through gambling and other illegal operations, as well as the dazzling performances of top players.”
So let me see if I got this straight: a form of show-biz was run by some rather shady characters, and worked out a patina of respectability because some highly-skilled artists wanted to do their thing, leveraged their glamour to do so, and had no other useful outlet? So… you’re talking about Broadway and the Bolshoi Ballet and the Globe Theater and House Coco Chanel? You ever met a gangster who didn’t want to date a stripper? Tell me, before you finally fell off the back of the truck, did you get any of the names of your fellow turnips?
The MLB/Negro Leagues stats merger is preposterous on manifold intellectual and mathematical and political/societal grounds; but it’s hardly surprising in the context of how showbiz really works.
“Never argue with the movies.” — Frank O’Hara
1947 Larry Jansen (NYG)
1949 NL Del Crandell (BOS)
1950 NL Bob Miller (PHI)
1951 NL Chet Nichols (BOS)
1952 NL Hoyt Wilhelm (NYG)
1953 NL Harvey Haddix (StL)Replies: @kaganovitch, @Nicholas Stix
I had read about Haddix, 50-odd years ago, but had forgotten all about him. So, I looked him up.
He had a rookie year for the ages (20-9, led the league in shutouts, etc.), while Junior Gilliam was a mediocrity. And the vote wasn’t even close (11-4). There must have been affirmative action afoot already in the voting.
And what does google say Haddix was? “American baseball coach.” Then again, it says the same of Gilliam. Heck, the pretend encyclopedia is more accurate about Haddix than google is.
Let's also keep in mind that during the mid century especially, NY and BRK teams got the lion's share of national publicity since they were based in NY, as were most of the national sportswriters/sports media.
But then, they'd simply say that it was evened out by Bill Virdon winning ROY in '55, over Roberto Clemente, and Wally Moon in '54, over Hank Aaron.
Ironically, while Haddix's best seasons were with the Cardinals, he is best known as a Pittsburgh Pirate for throwing a perfect game for 12⅔ innings against the Milwaukee Braves in 1959. He then was the winning pitcher for the Pirates in Game 7 of the 1960 World Series against the Yankees and was the pitching coach for the Pirates for their 1979 World Series winner.
https://www.history.com/topics/sports/negro-league-baseballThis quote seems to indicate the negative thoughts were undeserved, but I wonder.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30540089/mlb-add-negro-leagues-official-records-never-change-did-black-playershttps://makingsofafather.com/numbers/https://sabr.org/journal/article/negro-league-baseball-black-community-and-the-socio-economic-impact-of-integration/Replies: @The Germ Theory of Disease, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
“Pompez went on to have a successful career in baseball, including being elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame on February 27, 2006.”
So a numbers writer connected to organized crime is in the HOF, but not George Steinbrenner. Or Charles Finley.
“While Black owners were criticized (sometimes fairly) for being connected with illegal gaming and numbers-running, there were major league owners during the same period who actually owned casinos and horse tracks.”
The operative word here, is “legal” and “illegal”. There were no MLB owners during this period that had direct ties to organized crime. Lucky Luciano, Al Capone, and Meyer Lansky did not actually own any MLB franchises. In fact, CHI NL was severely reprimanded and a player allegedly threatened with suspension for having signed a bat for Al Capone’s son. Ironically, the same year that Robinson integrated MLB, BRK M Leo Durocher was suspended for an entire season due to his direct association with organized crime. And of course several players on the 1919 CHI AL team were banned for life from playing or having any direct connection with, not just MLB, but with any recognized professional US baseball league, period.
But that’s too much nuance for Wokesters/CRT’ers.
He had a rookie year for the ages (20-9, led the league in shutouts, etc.), while Junior Gilliam was a mediocrity. And the vote wasn't even close (11-4). There must have been affirmative action afoot already in the voting.
And what does google say Haddix was? "American baseball coach." Then again, it says the same of Gilliam. Heck, the pretend encyclopedia is more accurate about Haddix than google is.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @ScarletNumber
I met Harvey Haddix when I was a kid. He was coaching in local W. PA baseball camps for kids.
Let’s also keep in mind that during the mid century especially, NY and BRK teams got the lion’s share of national publicity since they were based in NY, as were most of the national sportswriters/sports media.
But then, they’d simply say that it was evened out by Bill Virdon winning ROY in ’55, over Roberto Clemente, and Wally Moon in ’54, over Hank Aaron.
He had a rookie year for the ages (20-9, led the league in shutouts, etc.), while Junior Gilliam was a mediocrity. And the vote wasn't even close (11-4). There must have been affirmative action afoot already in the voting.
And what does google say Haddix was? "American baseball coach." Then again, it says the same of Gilliam. Heck, the pretend encyclopedia is more accurate about Haddix than google is.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @ScarletNumber
The only thing I can think of is that Haddix made 6 starts with the Cardinals in 1952, while Gilliam spent the entirety of the 1952 season with the Montreal Royals of the International League before becoming the Dodgers’ full-time second baseman in 1953. Back then writers were free to decide if a particular player was a rookie or not, while now there is a definitive line in the sand. By modern standards Haddix would have still been considered a rookie in 1953, which may have caused more writers to vote for him.
Ironically, while Haddix’s best seasons were with the Cardinals, he is best known as a Pittsburgh Pirate for throwing a perfect game for 12⅔ innings against the Milwaukee Braves in 1959. He then was the winning pitcher for the Pirates in Game 7 of the 1960 World Series against the Yankees and was the pitching coach for the Pirates for their 1979 World Series winner.
The point is, it was just deemed a major league. You have been neglecting your ISteve studies again. See https://www.unz.com/isteve/negro-leagues-records-to-prevail-over-mlb-records/
Has the book tour killed Steve' interesting in noticing anything new and thus, he has to keep going to the same old topics.Replies: @Servenet
You’re a troll, dude. Nothing but a troll. Just to in-before you…looking forward to you smashing the “troll” button…troll.
Is one willing to call the raving racist trolls"
Is one willing to call the sexist posters who want to protect women's sports from transwomen but also want to shut down women's sports because women are not as talented as men, women athletes are ugly, and too many of them are lesbian?
If one wants to get picky on trollish behavior, there are lots of places to start before worrying about why Steve is worrying about intentional fouls in the WNBA rather than the recent elections in Mexico that will affect not only illegal immigrant but cross border crime.Replies: @Servenet
And who do we have to blame for this madness? Sorry to say, especially as a WN, but it is WHITES…who are to blame for this madness. For eg. …would YOU allow your children to be shit on relentlessly by inferior, crappy people? OF COURSE YOU WOULDN’T. But collectively, Whites have been, not only tolerating being totaling shit on for near 80 years, but have been celebrating it, even enthusiastically abetting it. I sometimes can’t decide who to detest more. The AWFUL negro or the mentally/spiritually diseased Whites who have inflicted all this evil on the minority of Whites who see and tell and try to live the TRUTH.
For the last 60 years we have been trying to assimiliate Blacks into the middle class. I can remember in my sixties Indianapolis childhood when we started this project by ending segregation. Whites were unpleasantly surprised when this was followed by a huge Black crimewave.
Whites then moved to the suburbs, went into a state of denial, and pretended it never happened. They have continued to present the success of this project as plausible by claiming Blacks have had past successes, so it can happen again.
The majority of Americans now were born after 1980 so do not remember all the talk of "light at the end of the tunnel" during the Vietnam War. This was an effort to justify pouring more resources into a hopeless cause. We are not going to take 85 IQ ghetto Blacks and turn them into middle class people. That is another hopeless cause.Replies: @Anonymous, @John Johnson, @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @Hypnotoad666
There was a huge crime wave period after 1960.
==
Most people are wage-earners. Don’t know why you object to them.
==
No clue what you’d call salaried employees and small businessmen who are black (who were not absent prior to 1964, btw).
==
There are four local government authorities where I live, with a total population of 250,000. One is 27% black, one 7.5% black, one 5.8% black, and one 3% black. The whole area is about 14% black. About 35% of the black population lives out and about in census tracts where blacks are not particularly common (4.5% or thereabouts on average). The state police have been skimping on county-level data in recent years. Their 2017 report recorded one homicide in three of the four jurisdictions noted above, in a population of 150,000. How do you characterize this 35% of the black population?
Outliers. Or part of the talented tenth.
Like, come on.
This about sums up most of 2020s American public life. That with a bit of tweaking to avoid the obvious origins of the above (at least obvious to the small minority well read enough to recognize it and tip off the others), you’d probably easily get the overwhelming majority of people in power to vociferously agree with it as applied to the American racial spoils system says something, doesn’t it?
Irrelevant even if true.
People who say “he always liked baseball stats” are missing the point. The point is he has for some time been distancing himself from all his old topics and the analysis that made him interesting. No immigration, no politics, no foreign policy, etc.
Listening to him slowly recite stock non-responsive stories to avoid saying anything of substance on podcasts is cringe. IMHO, he is making a big mistake and hurting his reputation.
Any new people checking him out are expecting to hear a knowledgeable intellectual who has a theory of the world and can talk fluently about it. Instead, they hear someone who seems amiable but very non-intellectual and very uninteresting. They go away disappointed. It’s a real missed opportunity.
Thanks. I actually follow D1 women’as softball fairly closely. I hate UCLA and always have. They should change their mascot from the Bruins to Arby’s – because their roster is always full of mystery meat. Although a pasty white redhead freshman has carried UCLA into the WCWS with her dominant pitching.
There have been more daughters/sisters/cousins/nieces of pro-athletes to play D1 softball than people realize. Former Bear 1st round bust Justin Fields’ sister played at Georgia the last 4 seasons.
A 6’2″ softmore at Tennessee named Karlyn Pickens (no relation to Slim that I know of) I believe broke the record for fastest pitch ever in D1 women’s softball with a 76 mph effort this year:
Despite the stereotype, I have noticed that lesbian players are quite a bit less represented in D1 softball than people think. Most of the older female coaches appear to be, like Michigan’s longtime head coach who often resembles Robert Redford:
Good point. Anyone have numbers for favorite sports by year and race? I am not seeing any.
Here is some 2019 data for favorite sport by ethnicity.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1074256/sports-leagues-ethnicity/
MLB not literally last for blacks (NHL and MLS both trail, I am surprised they manage to hit 2% each), but close enough.
Any idea why black basketball leagues from the same era seem to receive so much less attention (both then and now?) than the Negro Leagues?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Fives
For the last 60 years we have been trying to assimiliate Blacks into the middle class. I can remember in my sixties Indianapolis childhood when we started this project by ending segregation. Whites were unpleasantly surprised when this was followed by a huge Black crimewave.
Whites then moved to the suburbs, went into a state of denial, and pretended it never happened. They have continued to present the success of this project as plausible by claiming Blacks have had past successes, so it can happen again.
The majority of Americans now were born after 1980 so do not remember all the talk of "light at the end of the tunnel" during the Vietnam War. This was an effort to justify pouring more resources into a hopeless cause. We are not going to take 85 IQ ghetto Blacks and turn them into middle class people. That is another hopeless cause.Replies: @Anonymous, @John Johnson, @JimDandy, @Art Deco, @Hypnotoad666
Steve says that the gap is 50% “nurture.” That means we can get the mean black IQ to 92.5 if we just expose them to enough whiteness. We simply need the right programs.
Has he ever said what programs would work? If not, formulating those programs is where he could do the most good as a pro-social public intellectual.
How's that worked out the last 60 years, or do we not have a big enough sample size yet.
A single negro can be "nurtured" into functioning in a white society if surrounded by a large enough group of whites. Once you have a group of negroes larger than 5% of the entire group, good luck with that.
That sounds plausible. I don't know about Steve but Charles Murray has said Black children would do better educationally if more of them grew up in two parent homes. In his Losing Ground book he showed how changes in the welfare system encouraged the breakup of the Black family. People respond to incentives. In the sixties we encouraged more out of wedlock Black children with more welfare and more Black criminals by reducing the penalties for crime.Replies: @AceDeuce, @Reg Cæsar
“Underscoring all this is the implication that somehow no one knows how good Gibson, Paige et al were.”
Exactly. Especially since they played their careers in piss poor leagues vs mostly 3rd rate calibre players.
“It’s been well known since Major Leaguers played against black players on the wintertime barnstorming circuit. Unfortunately this led to the implication that Negro Leagues players were all HOFers.”
Preach it, brother! And for CRT/Wokeism, that’s the main point of the whole entire ballgame. To make everyone think exactly that thought, that they were ALLLLL great HOFers in the making, until whitey spoiled it for ’em!
Does anyone know of an analysis of the relative play of Negro League players in MLB exhibitions compared to their play in their own leagues?
I am fascinated by how dramatic the differences are for different assessments of Negro League players. In another comment I complained about including Oscar Charleston in a list of all time greats (using Baseball Reference statistics as a rationale). This post explains that view.
https://www.mlb.com/news/negro-leagues-major-leagues-equivalencies
Here is the actual Baseball Reference all-time center field WAR leaderboard for comparison.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_CF.shtml
Those numbers are based on this database.
https://horsehidedragnet.wordpress.com/negro-leagues/
That page also links to a long article.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33194902/top-100-mlb-players-all-oscar-charleston-best-baseball-player-all-why-important-try-find-out
Top 100 MLB players of all time: What if Oscar Charleston is the best baseball player of all time — and why it’s so important to try to find out
Looking up Oscar Charleston in that database I see lifetime (a sample, to judge inclusiveness) 12020 plate appearances and 358 home runs. Compare that to Baseball Reference.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/charlos99.shtml
3885 plate appearances and 143 home runs.
Presumably the latter stats are against better competition, but let’s look at HR production rate.
12020 / 358 = 1 HR per 33.6 PA
3885 / 143 = 1 HR per 27.2 PA
So he had a higher HR rate against better competition? Does that make sense?
In the current 1.4 version of that database I see a WAR of 107.7 and 1924 OPS of 1.243 (1925 of 1.256) compared to WAR of 98.4 and 1924 OPS of 1.180 in the ESPN article. Just how high can they goose the Negro League numbers?
I am only beginning to appreciate how much this change is less significant in itself than as a Pandora’s Box being opened. The combination of sketchy statistics and woke desires will be interesting (in the sense of the “ancient Chinese curse”) to watch unfold.
==
Most people are wage-earners. Don't know why you object to them.
==
No clue what you'd call salaried employees and small businessmen who are black (who were not absent prior to 1964, btw).
==
There are four local government authorities where I live, with a total population of 250,000. One is 27% black, one 7.5% black, one 5.8% black, and one 3% black. The whole area is about 14% black. About 35% of the black population lives out and about in census tracts where blacks are not particularly common (4.5% or thereabouts on average). The state police have been skimping on county-level data in recent years. Their 2017 report recorded one homicide in three of the four jurisdictions noted above, in a population of 150,000. How do you characterize this 35% of the black population?Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
“No clue what you’d call salaried employees and small businessmen who are black (who were not absent prior to 1964, btw).”
Outliers. Or part of the talented tenth.
Like, come on.
https://www.mlb.com/news/negro-leagues-major-leagues-equivalenciesHere is the actual Baseball Reference all-time center field WAR leaderboard for comparison.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_CF.shtmlThose numbers are based on this database.
https://horsehidedragnet.wordpress.com/negro-leagues/That page also links to a long article.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33194902/top-100-mlb-players-all-oscar-charleston-best-baseball-player-all-why-important-try-find-out
Top 100 MLB players of all time: What if Oscar Charleston is the best baseball player of all time -- and why it's so important to try to find out
Looking up Oscar Charleston in that database I see lifetime (a sample, to judge inclusiveness) 12020 plate appearances and 358 home runs. Compare that to Baseball Reference.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/charlos99.shtml3885 plate appearances and 143 home runs.Presumably the latter stats are against better competition, but let's look at HR production rate.12020 / 358 = 1 HR per 33.6 PA
3885 / 143 = 1 HR per 27.2 PASo he had a higher HR rate against better competition? Does that make sense?In the current 1.4 version of that database I see a WAR of 107.7 and 1924 OPS of 1.243 (1925 of 1.256) compared to WAR of 98.4 and 1924 OPS of 1.180 in the ESPN article. Just how high can they goose the Negro League numbers?I am only beginning to appreciate how much this change is less significant in itself than as a Pandora's Box being opened. The combination of sketchy statistics and woke desires will be interesting (in the sense of the "ancient Chinese curse") to watch unfold.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
“Just how high can they goose the Negro League numbers?”
How many times in CHI or NY can they “recount” the ballots until the desired outcome is obtained?
“The combination of sketchy statistics and woke desires will be interesting (in the sense of the “ancient Chinese curse”) to watch unfold.”
Or “ancient Chinese secret”
So basically, this is demonstrating Steve’s main point: Negro League stats aren’t 100% reliable, much less entirely accurate.
Realistically, it’s playing out to be more along the lines of:
“Just take our word on this, folks! We all know that many many Negro Leagues players were all that and then some, so just go with it! Trust the data, and take the numbers/stats we give you at face value all the way! It’s now part of the gospel Narrative of racism bad, and all Negro Leagues players are all HOF worthy deserving. Just trust us and go with it!”
Here are a few other fun considerations.
The best Negro Leagues players (from 1900-1945) compiled impressive stats feasting on the worst teams, which were very bad. Far worse, I’m sure, than the worst MLB teams. So now those junk stats will be merged into MLB numbers.
The claim that games between MLB and Negro Leagues players often resulted in Negro League wins has to tempered by several realities. These were exhibition and barnstorming games, often played in the off-season, when players were working jobs to survive and were out of shape. From 1900-1945, the life span of the Negro Leagues, it looks like an average of 7-8 of these games were played per year. Not an impressive sample size.
The very best Negro Leagues players were on a par with MLB players. But that is an irrelevant argument for including their Negro League stats in MLB numbers.
MLB has been trying to “refine” its analysis of Negro Leagues stats. But the job is daunting. Many games had no box scores at all, and reports rely on anecdotes.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gibsojo99.shtmlIf you look closely you will see according to them he did not even lead his own league in 1943 (anyone else notice that was a war year?) when he had his .466 BA. So who did?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NN2/1943-standard-batting.shtmlA 37 year old named Tetelo Vargas who batted .471 over 30 games with 136 plate appearances. Ouch. Can't have a Hispanic (even if he was black) leading the Negro Leagues. Here is Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetelo_VargasThis page gives details of Baseball Reference coverage for Negro League statistics.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/coverage.shtml#all_negro_leaguesHere is the MLB page describing the addition of NLB statistics. Among other fun is this. What can't Covid do?!
https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-negro-league-stats-added-after-statistical-review-committee-announces-findingsHere is the official statement of what is required for season leader stats to qualify.Let's take another look at Tetelo Vargas and the 1943 season for his team.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vargate01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYC/1943.shtmlThere we see:
- 30 games with 136 plate appearances
- (team) Record: 19-14-1, Finished 2nd in Negro National League IINow for some math. 136/44 = 3.09 My goodness, that 3.1 requirement is awfully convenient. It gets even better when we look at the actual rule.
https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/mlb/9-22-minimum-standards-individual-championships/Looking deeper it seems the 3.1 number dates from 1957 so really is an extremely lucky coincidence Vargas was so close? From the Baseball Reference FAQ. This explains why they differ from MLB on this.
https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/baseball-reference-faqs/There is a huge disconnect between the official statistics and what is claimed. For example, at the link above Josh Gibson has 166 home runs. Yet we see this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_GibsonThen there is this.To update Beria's quote: "Tell me what you want to 'prove' and I will find you a number."Although it is a small sample (2 homers in 56 PA against MLB pitchers) I think the difference in HR rates between MLB and NLB pitchers (2/56 vs. 224/2,375 or 1/28 vs. 1 in 10.6) is an additional point towards my comments about difference in pitching between the leagues.For another point along those lines, here are 1943 team batting statistics.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/1943-standard-batting.shtmlThe Homestead Grays led with .330 (BTW, notice how leagues are not included in this table! You can roughly infer NLB by looking at missing statistics like strikeouts) followed by two NLB teams and then the St. Louis Cardinals at .279. Does anyone want to claim the pitching between the leagues was at all comparable?BTW, I was just reading a review of the book 1984 by Isaac Asimov. He considered the rewriting of history idea unnecessary since people are so present oriented.
https://www.newworker.org/ncptrory/1984.htmP.S. This is really long, but also very on topic. Steve, if you want to add a MORE feel free.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
In the 1970’s hit TV series, Sandford and Son, Fred tells Lamont how he got his first name: He was named after Lamont Lomax, who pitched 46 consecutive scoreless innings for the Homestead Grays in 1932.
Btw, was there a Negro Leagues pitcher named Lamont Lomax, and did he pitch 46 consecutive scoreless innings in 1932 for the Homestead Grays?
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HG/1932.shtml
Someone else thought that was humorous.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=88006
Episode transcript here.
02x17 - Lamont Goes African
https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=69399Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
The traditional compromise solution: multiply the Negro League statistics by 0.6.
I don’t know if this spent too long in moderation or went over everyone’s head, but I expected feedback here.
Has he ever said what programs would work? If not, formulating those programs is where he could do the most good as a pro-social public intellectual.Replies: @Mike Tre, @Mark G., @John Johnson
“Steve says that the gap is 50% “nurture.” That means we can get the mean black IQ to 92.5 if we just expose them to enough whiteness. We simply need the right programs. ”
How’s that worked out the last 60 years, or do we not have a big enough sample size yet.
A single negro can be “nurtured” into functioning in a white society if surrounded by a large enough group of whites. Once you have a group of negroes larger than 5% of the entire group, good luck with that.
Is one willing to call the raving anti-semites trolls?
Is one willing to call the raving racist trolls”
Is one willing to call the sexist posters who want to protect women’s sports from transwomen but also want to shut down women’s sports because women are not as talented as men, women athletes are ugly, and too many of them are lesbian?
If one wants to get picky on trollish behavior, there are lots of places to start before worrying about why Steve is worrying about intentional fouls in the WNBA rather than the recent elections in Mexico that will affect not only illegal immigrant but cross border crime.
reply is so confessional of just what a troll you really are that your
complete unselfawareness is positively risible. For a raving libtard
like you to be posting at Unz utterly DEFINES YOU AS NOTHING BUT A
TROLL.Replies: @guest007
Has he ever said what programs would work? If not, formulating those programs is where he could do the most good as a pro-social public intellectual.Replies: @Mike Tre, @Mark G., @John Johnson
“Steve says that the gap is 50% nurture.”
That sounds plausible. I don’t know about Steve but Charles Murray has said Black children would do better educationally if more of them grew up in two parent homes. In his Losing Ground book he showed how changes in the welfare system encouraged the breakup of the Black family. People respond to incentives. In the sixties we encouraged more out of wedlock Black children with more welfare and more Black criminals by reducing the penalties for crime.
The facts that negroes wanted these things and considered them as rewards shows their moral bankruptcy.
Murray and Herrnstein alluded to this dysgenic process in The Bell Curve, saying it would only exacerbate the current situation, but did not elaborate. Just left it hanging, like a chad.Replies: @kaganovitch, @John Johnson
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-05-31/solar-project-to-destroy-thousands-of-joshua-trees?utm_medium=emailReplies: @Frau Katze
The problem is that you can’t have both unchecked immigration plus environmental worries over Joshua Trees.
That sounds plausible. I don't know about Steve but Charles Murray has said Black children would do better educationally if more of them grew up in two parent homes. In his Losing Ground book he showed how changes in the welfare system encouraged the breakup of the Black family. People respond to incentives. In the sixties we encouraged more out of wedlock Black children with more welfare and more Black criminals by reducing the penalties for crime.Replies: @AceDeuce, @Reg Cæsar
LOL. Charles Murray is a NerdWhite Brainiac goof. From birth till now in wealthy all White surroundings. About as street smart as a Muppet. “Hi Boys and Girls! I’m Mr. Cuckstuffins–the friendly Cuck Boi puppet with a hand up my arse!”
I mean, people do respond to incentives–and in the 60s, LBJ and others did dangle temptation to negroes to a degree.
But it was the kind of temptation that you’d have to be a scumbag of a person to celebrate or partake of in the first place. Especially if you had a brain and realized how destructive the new path was.
I grew up in the 60s. I can’t imagine some govt. arsehole saying to my mom and dad–“You two break up. Dad goes away for good, never to see his family again, and mom and the kids go live in squalor and poverty. Free money, but not much, but mom can have a different guy to bang every week”
My dad would have beaten him half to death while my mom dug the shallow grave. He’d have been buried alive, soon to turn into lawn fertilizer.
So if the phags get their way and the penalty for diddling little kids goes bye bye, will you then jump in the perv pool and get jiggy with little Liam, the 2nd grade stud muffin? Are penalties the only reason jeeping you from being a molester?
The facts that negroes wanted these things and considered them as rewards shows their moral bankruptcy.
That sounds plausible. I don't know about Steve but Charles Murray has said Black children would do better educationally if more of them grew up in two parent homes. In his Losing Ground book he showed how changes in the welfare system encouraged the breakup of the Black family. People respond to incentives. In the sixties we encouraged more out of wedlock Black children with more welfare and more Black criminals by reducing the penalties for crime.Replies: @AceDeuce, @Reg Cæsar
We also had unintended and perverse incentives at the top of the black pyramid, the “talented tenth”. I’ve seen South Korea-level TFRs given for this group, worse than successful whites of the same class.
Murray and Herrnstein alluded to this dysgenic process in The Bell Curve, saying it would only exacerbate the current situation, but did not elaborate. Just left it hanging, like a chad.
YO DAESHAWN YOU BETTER HAVE CHICKEN WINGS FOR MEAND I NEED EXTRA STRAWS FOR MY HI-CNo exaggeration. WTF is with the HI-C?Seeing the expression of total cringe on some of those smug White liberal students was the highlight of my day. What's the matter ladies? Why so glum today?Murray and Herrnstein alluded to this dysgenic process in The Bell Curve, saying it would only exacerbate the current situationThe dysgenic process is in White liberal educators convincing middle class Black women that they should hold out for an educated man. There is a phenomenon where educated Black women stay single and 'wilding' Black men impregnant random women based entirely on looks.
Murray and Herrnstein alluded to this dysgenic process in The Bell Curve, saying it would only exacerbate the current situation, but did not elaborate. Just left it hanging, like a chad.Replies: @kaganovitch, @John Johnson
I see what you did there.
Its a shame, he’d be alive if he didn’t reflexively jump on the back of the White guy while ignoring the Muzzie with the knife. Now he’s permanently unwoke.
Is one willing to call the raving racist trolls"
Is one willing to call the sexist posters who want to protect women's sports from transwomen but also want to shut down women's sports because women are not as talented as men, women athletes are ugly, and too many of them are lesbian?
If one wants to get picky on trollish behavior, there are lots of places to start before worrying about why Steve is worrying about intentional fouls in the WNBA rather than the recent elections in Mexico that will affect not only illegal immigrant but cross border crime.Replies: @Servenet
Of all the dumb commenters I have ever read…you take the cake. Your
reply is so confessional of just what a troll you really are that your
complete unselfawareness is positively risible. For a raving libtard
like you to be posting at Unz utterly DEFINES YOU AS NOTHING BUT A
TROLL.
Btw, was there a Negro Leagues pitcher named Lamont Lomax, and did he pitch 46 consecutive scoreless innings in 1932 for the Homestead Grays?Replies: @res
I assume that was rhetorical? Here is the roster of the 1932 Homestead Grays.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HG/1932.shtml
Someone else thought that was humorous.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=88006
Episode transcript here.
02×17 – Lamont Goes African
https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=69399
The Sanford script was by Ilunga Adell, né William Adell Stevenson. You have to wonder where he gotten the Lomax name.https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0694111/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_wr_sm
That’s good, ’cause I don’t.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HG/1932.shtml
Someone else thought that was humorous.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=88006
Episode transcript here.
02x17 - Lamont Goes African
https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=69399Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
John Lomax and his son Alan were the white musicologists who horned in on Lead Belly’s composition royalties. The again, Huddie may not have much of a claim himself, having slapped his niece Irene’s name on an existing song.
https://www.culturalequity.org/alan-lomax/friends/ledbetter
The Sanford script was by Ilunga Adell, né William Adell Stevenson. You have to wonder where he gotten the Lomax name.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0694111/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_wr_sm
There have been more daughters/sisters/cousins/nieces of pro-athletes to play D1 softball than people realize. Former Bear 1st round bust Justin Fields' sister played at Georgia the last 4 seasons.
A 6'2" softmore at Tennessee named Karlyn Pickens (no relation to Slim that I know of) I believe broke the record for fastest pitch ever in D1 women's softball with a 76 mph effort this year:
https://extrainningsoftball.com/wp-content/uploads/Karly-Pickens-holding-ball-1536x1024.jpg
Despite the stereotype, I have noticed that lesbian players are quite a bit less represented in D1 softball than people think. Most of the older female coaches appear to be, like Michigan's longtime head coach who often resembles Robert Redford:
https://www.mlive.com/resizer/hT04V4c4BCnjrR6Gx5c1_MUImkc=/1280x0/smart/advancelocal-adapter-image-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/image.mlive.com/home/mlive-media/width2048/img/wolverines_impact/photo/hutchinsjpg-cca89c89ebbe3ccb.jpgReplies: @MGB
i think that is the equivalent of a 96-97mph baseball pitch. not too shabby.
Has he ever said what programs would work? If not, formulating those programs is where he could do the most good as a pro-social public intellectual.Replies: @Mike Tre, @Mark G., @John Johnson
Steve says that the gap is 50% “nurture.” That means we can get the mean black IQ to 92.5 if we just expose them to enough whiteness. We simply need the right programs.
Racial differences exist but Steve is wrong to focus so much on IQ.
It’s actually somewhat insulting to those of us that have worked with mentally disabled adults.
I used to live near a group home for such adults and they were harmless. One would often come in the coffee shop and talk to anyone who would pretend to listen. They were basically not intelligent enough to take care of themselves and were on state assistance. Note severely retarded by the state had given up on them. They didn’t harm anyone and were highly respectful to the community. In fact they accepted their place and dutifully did as asked by anyone. At the grocery store they would switch tables so the locals had more room. It was actually kind of sad.
Yes they were all White.
But that case still shows that it is not as simple as dividing up everyone by IQ and giving them the right programs. How were those low IQ White adults to so considerate? State programs?
Anyone who has actually worked with Blacks and Whites would not be surprised by that anecdote and would not assume that an above-average intelligence Black is basically White. Blacks will do things that will surprise you. Whites project certain behaviors that they assume are normally followed by everyone. They think Blacks just need a dash of the o’l Anglo/liberal/Christian environment. These Whites have definitely not been around children who have a harder time “knowing” what is expected. I’m amazed that liberal teachers in multi-racial can function with a straight face. You would be amazed by how fast the children will screw up the narrative and I’m not talking about general misbehaving. They will do weird and annoying shit that doesn’t make any sense.
For example I had one get upset because I wouldn’t do batting practice with him. I did not know this kid but I was a White guy holding a bat. No reason to assume I was a coach or anything like that….and this was an urban area where a ball would be lost within minutes. He asked rudely for batting practice and I said no. Then he was badgering me with questions about why not. He was visibly pissed and gave me the nod and tooth whistle. I was a White guy holding a f-cking baseball bat. Good LORD I’ve never once had a random White kid walk up and demand sports practice and then get pissed when I say no. WTF??
Murray and Herrnstein alluded to this dysgenic process in The Bell Curve, saying it would only exacerbate the current situation, but did not elaborate. Just left it hanging, like a chad.Replies: @kaganovitch, @John Johnson
We also had unintended and perverse incentives at the top of the black pyramid, the “talented tenth”.
The talented tenth at my college were a constant mockery of the great efforts that the liberal students and professors went through to promote the idea that race doesn’t exist.
In fact they were somewhat of a reprieve to the constant and enduring bullshit we had to put up with from anti-White professors.
Nothing more amusing to be having lunch and then see the faces of GUD WHITE liberals as the tenthers enter the cafeteria. At some point they knew what was coming.
(loud booming Black voice)
YO DAESHAWN YOU BETTER HAVE CHICKEN WINGS FOR ME
AND I NEED EXTRA STRAWS FOR MY HI-C
No exaggeration. WTF is with the HI-C?
Seeing the expression of total cringe on some of those smug White liberal students was the highlight of my day. What’s the matter ladies? Why so glum today?
Murray and Herrnstein alluded to this dysgenic process in The Bell Curve, saying it would only exacerbate the current situation
The dysgenic process is in White liberal educators convincing middle class Black women that they should hold out for an educated man. There is a phenomenon where educated Black women stay single and ‘wilding’ Black men impregnant random women based entirely on looks.
reply is so confessional of just what a troll you really are that your
complete unselfawareness is positively risible. For a raving libtard
like you to be posting at Unz utterly DEFINES YOU AS NOTHING BUT A
TROLL.Replies: @guest007
That one cannot really identify a liberal person or believes that being racist, or anti-semitic, or sexist makes one a conservatives shows why conservatives have been underperforming lately. But keep up the idea that one is being clever by being a bigot.
"Bigot" - the favorite word, along with "racist" of the thoroughly hypocritical leftoid, the self-glorifying Pharisee. But here is the Merriam-Webster definition - A person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
In other words, a person who has no use for facts, evidence, or objective truth/reality. A person as per his overweening self-regard sees himself as indefectable, incapable of error.
Your arrogance and self-righteousness is a study in hubris. The very fact that you inflict yourself on those who comment at Unz, who nearly homogeneously are of a "dissident" right and racialist cast-of-mind, shows you to be a troll and nothing but a troll. And it follows that a self-righteous hypocrite would demonstrate such a trollish nature that anyone who counters him, who has a contrary view of the world, that such a troll finds unbearable and cannot stand to know that others in the world find his mentality defective and harmful. But that's you, bud. So you can put it in your troll pipe...and smoke it.Replies: @guest007
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/HG/1932.shtml
Someone else thought that was humorous.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=88006
Episode transcript here.
02x17 - Lamont Goes African
https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?t=69399Replies: @Reg Cæsar, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
Uh, actually, no, it was a legitimate question. Sanford said it so “seriously”, he made it sound like such a P in the Negro Leagues actually existed, especially since in the same episode, Sanford mentions to Lamont “If you wanna celebrate my culture, put up a poster of Billy Eckstein, or Joe Louis”. If those two dudes exist (and they did, obviously), perhaps such a P in the Negro Leagues also existed. Perhaps. But, obviously he did not.
So then the answer is no, it is fictional, bogus, bupkus, bullshit, and pure fantasy to add to the Narrative agenda.
Just like 95% of all total Negro Leagues accomplishments when weighed vs MLB’s most accurate stats.
All we have to do is ask: Which side wanted to play in which league? Don’t read of any stories of white ball players wanting to play in the Negro Leagues, if the overall quality was all that.
MLB was, and continues to be, the global gold standard of world professional baseball leagues. It is the superior pro baseball league globally. And every nation’s ball players, if they are talented at all, want an opportunity to play in MLB.
Facts.
I think I read in one of Frank Cioffi’s books, perhaps ‘Freud and the Question of Pseudoscience’, where he quotes an 18th century diarist, whose name escapes me. In those days serious diaries were laid out with the same date for several years so e.g. your entry for Jan 6 1789 would be followed by Jan 6 1790 and so forth. Anyway he cites the (random date) June 19th 1778 entry from this diarist as saying ” The events of this terrible day are graven on my mind. I have no need to to write them down as they will be with me ever after.” Then in June 19 1779, directly underneath, he writes “The Devil take me if have any idea to what I was referring here.” Same here.
Not even failed White players tried to play in that league.
Oo! I have an idea! Let’s count three fifths of the Negro League stats as legit, and disregard the rest. Everybody wins.
…by being a bigot>
“Bigot” – the favorite word, along with “racist” of the thoroughly hypocritical leftoid, the self-glorifying Pharisee. But here is the Merriam-Webster definition – A person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
In other words, a person who has no use for facts, evidence, or objective truth/reality. A person as per his overweening self-regard sees himself as indefectable, incapable of error.
Your arrogance and self-righteousness is a study in hubris. The very fact that you inflict yourself on those who comment at Unz, who nearly homogeneously are of a “dissident” right and racialist cast-of-mind, shows you to be a troll and nothing but a troll. And it follows that a self-righteous hypocrite would demonstrate such a trollish nature that anyone who counters him, who has a contrary view of the world, that such a troll finds unbearable and cannot stand to know that others in the world find his mentality defective and harmful. But that’s you, bud. So you can put it in your troll pipe…and smoke it.
"Bigot" - the favorite word, along with "racist" of the thoroughly hypocritical leftoid, the self-glorifying Pharisee. But here is the Merriam-Webster definition - A person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.
In other words, a person who has no use for facts, evidence, or objective truth/reality. A person as per his overweening self-regard sees himself as indefectable, incapable of error.
Your arrogance and self-righteousness is a study in hubris. The very fact that you inflict yourself on those who comment at Unz, who nearly homogeneously are of a "dissident" right and racialist cast-of-mind, shows you to be a troll and nothing but a troll. And it follows that a self-righteous hypocrite would demonstrate such a trollish nature that anyone who counters him, who has a contrary view of the world, that such a troll finds unbearable and cannot stand to know that others in the world find his mentality defective and harmful. But that's you, bud. So you can put it in your troll pipe...and smoke it.Replies: @guest007
In the 21st century, it is amazing to see someone openly bragging about being a sexist, racist bigot. And if one does not want the government to land on oneself like a ton bricks in the future, then one needs to be working to eliminate separate and unequal treatment by government rather than calling for race war of race-based government.
The issue at hand is that you’re a TROLL. Remember? No one cares about your leftoid delusions. It’s completely established that we are ideological enemies. And increasingly physical.. That we have nothing in common. That we need to be separate from one another.
Why not include Ichiro’s Japanese numbers? Or Sadaharu Oh’s. Or Hideki Matsui’s? Why should it be limited to the Negro Leagues?
Japs didn’t build this country like negroes did, bigot!
To make it even additionally extra clear regarding this entire Negro Leagues, Gibson, etc thing going on.
During WW2, the Japanese soldiers would often taunt US soldiers with the epithet, “To HELL with Babe Ruth!” In point of fact, a number of Japanese fighter pilots shouted this as they attacked Pearl Harbor.
During the War, why did they choose that particular name, and not shout out…oh…something along the lines of “Josh Gibson eats fried chicken!”
Because Babe Ruth was a symbol of all that was the best about America during the few decades leading up to the midcentury mark of the 20th century. He was a universally adored and even idolized symbol of the best about America during that time. Whereas no Negro League players ever achieved THAT level of global significance, ever.
If there was one MLBer that stands head and shoulders above the sport itself, so much so that wartime enemies in one of the world’s biggest global conflicts used his name to taunt their hated, sworn American enemies in combat, that fact alone speaks volumes as to his magnitude of greatness as a universally beloved symbol of the sport itself.
If there was ever one time in MLB’s storied history when a single player towered above the game itself, ….it was Babe Ruth, period.
When Ichiro is inducted into the HOF in a few years, wanna bet that MLB, to continue their full cuckness into PCness, will put on his plaque, NOT Westernized writing, but will use instead Japanese characters? So as not to offend their Japanese market, ER fans from across the Pacific?
What about PCL players from the 40’s and 50’s? There were many major league caliber players on the left coast, and, although I haven’t done the research probably some teams that were MLB worthy. Someone who has done actual research please feel free to enlighten me
PS. Not really making the argument. I’d bet, though that the Pacific Coast League was consistently better than any of the Negro leagues.
Our baseball coach in grade school, when he was pissed at us used to threaten to send us down to the Negro Leagues…
"[HOF Lefty] O'Doul then returned to the Pacific Coast League as manager of the San Francisco Seals from 1935 to 1951, later managing several other teams in the circuit and becoming the most successful manager in PCL history. One of his outstanding accomplishments while managing the Seals was developing the young Joe DiMaggio, who went on to a Hall of Fame career with the New York Yankees. O'Doul refused to take credit for DiMaggio's success, saying, "I was just smart enough to leave [him] alone."[7]
Per wiki again:
[HOF Casey] Stengel managed the Oaks for a third year in 1948, with the roster heavy with former major leaguers. Among the younger players on the team was 20-year-old shortstop Billy Martin. Stengel was impressed by Martin's fielding, baseball acuity, and, when there were brawls on the field, fighting ability. The Oaks clinched the pennant on September 26, and defeated Los Angeles and the Seattle Rainiers to win the Governors' Cup. The Sporting News named Stengel the Minor League Manager of the Year.[83]"
So the PCL does have quite a storied history indeed. Several HOF players came out of the PCL from the '20's through the '50's.Replies: @Ganderson
Per wiki:
“[HOF Lefty] O’Doul then returned to the Pacific Coast League as manager of the San Francisco Seals from 1935 to 1951, later managing several other teams in the circuit and becoming the most successful manager in PCL history. One of his outstanding accomplishments while managing the Seals was developing the young Joe DiMaggio, who went on to a Hall of Fame career with the New York Yankees. O’Doul refused to take credit for DiMaggio’s success, saying, “I was just smart enough to leave [him] alone.”[7]
Per wiki again:
[HOF Casey] Stengel managed the Oaks for a third year in 1948, with the roster heavy with former major leaguers. Among the younger players on the team was 20-year-old shortstop Billy Martin. Stengel was impressed by Martin’s fielding, baseball acuity, and, when there were brawls on the field, fighting ability. The Oaks clinched the pennant on September 26, and defeated Los Angeles and the Seattle Rainiers to win the Governors’ Cup. The Sporting News named Stengel the Minor League Manager of the Year.[83]”
So the PCL does have quite a storied history indeed. Several HOF players came out of the PCL from the ’20’s through the ’50’s.
Another fine player that came out of the PCL, although overshadowed by his brother, was Dom DiMaggio, who played for the Seals for three years. Dom comes up a tad short of the HOF, but not by much. Was very successful in his after baseball career, too.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
"[HOF Lefty] O'Doul then returned to the Pacific Coast League as manager of the San Francisco Seals from 1935 to 1951, later managing several other teams in the circuit and becoming the most successful manager in PCL history. One of his outstanding accomplishments while managing the Seals was developing the young Joe DiMaggio, who went on to a Hall of Fame career with the New York Yankees. O'Doul refused to take credit for DiMaggio's success, saying, "I was just smart enough to leave [him] alone."[7]
Per wiki again:
[HOF Casey] Stengel managed the Oaks for a third year in 1948, with the roster heavy with former major leaguers. Among the younger players on the team was 20-year-old shortstop Billy Martin. Stengel was impressed by Martin's fielding, baseball acuity, and, when there were brawls on the field, fighting ability. The Oaks clinched the pennant on September 26, and defeated Los Angeles and the Seattle Rainiers to win the Governors' Cup. The Sporting News named Stengel the Minor League Manager of the Year.[83]"
So the PCL does have quite a storied history indeed. Several HOF players came out of the PCL from the '20's through the '50's.Replies: @Ganderson
My understanding, too, was that there were many players in the PCL from the West Coast- they were making good for the time money playing out there, and preferred to play closer to home. Many quality players didn’t find the prospect of moving east and playing for the Browns or the Senators, say, all that attractive.
Another fine player that came out of the PCL, although overshadowed by his brother, was Dom DiMaggio, who played for the Seals for three years. Dom comes up a tad short of the HOF, but not by much. Was very successful in his after baseball career, too.
Another fine player that came out of the PCL, although overshadowed by his brother, was Dom DiMaggio, who played for the Seals for three years. Dom comes up a tad short of the HOF, but not by much. Was very successful in his after baseball career, too.Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
Yes he was. “The Little Professor”, (uh, no, not the pocket calculator that was popular a few decades ago), unlike his brother Joe, was married to the same woman for decades and had children. He developed a good reputation within the Boston community.
Also an excellent point of yours–that many PCLers refused to go East and play for mediocre teams, and so instead stayed home to play pro ball. Shame, because who knows how many MLB and possibly a few HOF calibre players missed out at the big time by their own design?
On an end note, but don’t tell Steve–SHH.
Perhaps it is time to revise the fairly ancient MLB stat RBI, in order to make it more palatable for Sabermetrics—suppose the stat’s designation is changed to HRS–Helped Run Score? Perhaps that would work with those who think that MLB stats only started about 40 or so yrs ago?
Might be more symmetrical at that. R, for Run Scored, HR, for Home Run, OPS and SLG, as well as now HRS–Helped Run Score? How’s that? Of course, may have to allow the ancient stat of H, (as in Hits) to stand, and of course those who believe that BB’s are more important than actual H’s are the be and end all will be extremely put off, but, you can’t have everything, can you?
Of course, if one can presto chango, a la Peanut Butter Sandwiches and make Negro Leagues Stats the equivalent to MLB stats, then perhaps you can have the cake and eat it too.
But remember, not a word of this to Steve. Promise me, Ganderson. Keep it on the QT, the Down Low, and mum’s the word…
SHH.